tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post5217272626015961639..comments2024-02-25T22:00:21.788-06:00Comments on theearstohear: Can an Unregenerate Man Seek God?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-17925818501133438042018-05-28T11:37:54.221-05:002018-05-28T11:37:54.221-05:00Teth, can you explain to me why Jesus marvelled at...Teth, can you explain to me why Jesus marvelled at their unbelief in Mark 6:6, assuming Total Depravity is true? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-2322146070942103272017-07-21T13:31:09.199-05:002017-07-21T13:31:09.199-05:00TN: I don't believe Christianity is a religion...TN: I don't believe Christianity is a religion. <br /><br />TETH: The bible does not shy away from proper Christian behavior as "pure religion and undefiled." (James 1:27) It describes that behavior as "visit[ing] the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." So we should not shy away from the idea that Christianity is a religion.<br /><br />TN: I mean i believe that Jesus was crucified, he died and rose again. <br /><br />TETH: All of that is true (I Corinthians 15:3-4)<br /><br />TN: But I'm adding my own righteous works to the cross. <br /><br />TETH: One's works have NO PARTICIPATORY involvement in the work whereby one is eternally saved. That is because we are saved "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5), "not according to our works" (II Timothy 1:9), and "not of works" (Ephesians 2:8-9). So if you think your works are adding to Christ's work of salvation, you are very much mistaken. <br /><br />TETH: That said, God's sheep are exhorted unto good works in their lives as their reasonable service to God (Romans 12:1). They're not doing those works in order to become saved, but rather in thanksgiving and love to God because they ARE saved. That's an important distinction. <br /><br />TN: Often, I obey God but not from the bottom of my heart. <br /><br />TETH: There is such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I suspect we all do this from time to time. <br /><br />TN: Therefore i feel like I'm being religious. <br /><br />TETH: When you obey God for the wrong reason, you're definitely being religious. That's the heart of Pharisaism, and I suspect that all Christians behave this way from time to time as a result of remaining sin in our lives (I John 1:8). <br /><br />TN: I wish to be truly saved, to be someone who does not obey God unwillingly, to truly rest on the cross. I mean is this desire from God so that he might lead me to be saved? Or is this desire evidence that I'm saved?<br /><br />TETH: A sincere desire to seek God (as in obedience or belief, etc.) is evidence that someone already is saved because man in his fallen, unregenerate state does not seek God. "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11) "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts." (Psalm 10:4)<br /><br />TETH: The gospel truth is that Jesus Christ put away the sins of his people at Calvary (John 19:30) and as a result they all stand righteous before the throne of God based on His work alone (II Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 1:3, 9:12, 10:10-14). The gospel proclaims this blessed truth and affirms that those who believe this testimony HAVE eternal life (John 6:47) and admonishes them to walk as obedient disciples of Christ as their reasonable service to God (Romans 12:1). <br /><br />May God bless our studies and understanding of His word, <br />TETH theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-20172391435131267392017-07-21T10:49:36.641-05:002017-07-21T10:49:36.641-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18382556472014491222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-79465722061593090652017-07-21T08:31:01.008-05:002017-07-21T08:31:01.008-05:00UNK: What if i obey God to get salvation meaning t...UNK: What if i obey God to get salvation meaning to say im being religious, doing righteous things i hate and avoiding sinful things i love, but i still seek God? <br /><br />TETH: Christianity is not a religion wherein one "obey[s] God to get salvation" neither is it about being religious in the form of "doing righteous things I hate and avoiding sinful things I love." Such actions do not constitute sincerely seeking God in truth. They may constitute what a fallen man THINKS is seeking God, but they are the motions of the carnal mind.<br /><br />UNK: Am i still a Christian?<br /><br />TETH: Those actions are inconsistent with the truths of the Christian faith. A Christian is one who has been born again (John 3:3), who has the ears to hear, who has heard the gospel of the finished work of their salvation by Christ (I Corinthians 15:3-4, John 19:30, II Corinthians 5:21), who believes that testimony and has brought forth a profession of faith in the waters of Baptism (I Peter 3:21) and joined the Lord's NT church. So there's more involved in being a "Christian" than just being eternally saved (born again). The former requires your willing and active obedience to the truth, the latter requires nothing of you whatsoever, it is the free gift of God. There are many who will be in heaven who never became "Christians" in their natural lives. At a minimum the OT saints are an irrefutable monument to this fact (Hebrews 11). <br /><br />God bless, <br />TETH theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-41342104198374120152017-07-21T03:09:38.060-05:002017-07-21T03:09:38.060-05:00What if i obey God to get salvation meaning to say...What if i obey God to get salvation meaning to say im being religious, doing righteous things i hate and avoiding sinful things i love, but i still seek God? Am i still a Christian?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18382556472014491222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-86560918609290484922016-12-31T16:44:05.747-06:002016-12-31T16:44:05.747-06:00TETH: To make matters worse, any such acceptance o...TETH: To make matters worse, any such acceptance of a gift would undeniably be a function of the will, which is likewise excluded (Romans 9:16, John 1:13).<br /><br /><br /> JH: I think it’s a misunderstanding of Paul to think that these verses imply there is no human will involved in salvation. I think even you would agree that some form of mans will is involved in salvation, even if it is something God has entirely worked out apart from man. Human will is involved.<br /><br /> Romans 9 and John 1 speak of salvation and new birth as NOT BEING by the “will of the flesh” or of “human will.” This simply means, in my understanding, that the new birth doesn’t come into our experience by our own personal “self efforts and striving” to produce righteousness in ourselves (will of the flesh) —— or by another persons self efforts and striving to produce righteousness in us (will of man).<br /><br /> So “the will,” in these contexts, speaks of a purely human will without the influence of the spirit - which is of no value to God - A person can exert self efforts and religious energy their entire lives and not move one centimeter toward God. It is not human effort trying to “climb up to God” that the Lord is interested. Rather, he desires us to simply respond to his “climbing down” to us, in the person of Jesus. Being born again or receiving mercy doesn't come from us “first” moving toward God with our own efforts to attain righteousness - - - but instead comes from our response to how God has FIRST moved toward us by grace in the person of Jesus. I think that is what these scriptures are trying to get at. I think these verses are actually parallels of verses like Ephesians 2:8-9. <br /><br />You have a good new year as well! God bless! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958071100166546345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-79987344042194142412016-12-31T16:40:58.036-06:002016-12-31T16:40:58.036-06:00TETH: I think this line of reasoning is pretty daf...TETH: I think this line of reasoning is pretty daft (to be blunt about it). If God states that someone NEVER does something do you believe he intends that they CAN do it or that doing it is impossible for them? <br /><br />JH: Well yes and no. While the purpose of this passage is definitely not primarily to show that unbelievers can seek God before they are born again, it certainly doesn’t teach the contrary. And it still allows the countless scriptures to be maintained where those who are not born again are commanded to repent and believe at the hearing of God’s word. Again, this repentance and belief is not something they “work up” by their own abilities, but rather is a “neutral” response to something that God has “worked up” in them. A person can choose to harden himself to God’s word or light or revelation or conviction - or to respond to it in humility. But God’s act most definitely must come first. “We love because he FIRST loved us.” <br /><br />TETH: Ask yourself this – is turning to God for forgiveness pleasing to God? <br /><br />JH: Hmm…interesting question. This is one of those questions i’m really pondering and chewing on in this season. So this is how I would respond to it right now… Turning to God in and of itself is not a meritorious act of righteousness. In itself, faith cannot and does not atone for the guilt of past or present sins. Just because a person “turns,” it does not necessitate then that God “owes” them forgiveness or help or favor. God would still be 100% just to ignore and destroy anyone who turns to him. So, even with their “turning” and faith, a person has nothing to boast about before God. They cannot claim that they partially “saved themselves” with their faith. This is to totally misunderstand the nature of what faith is. A person in the flesh cannot please God, however, when God’s “word” is met with a persons turning, they then are “in the spirit,” and therefore, able to please God. So, to sum up what i’m trying to say….. a person’s turning to God for forgiveness is not in itself pleasing to God. It is only pleasing AS it is a response to God’s word - rebuke - call - instruction. It is something God is doing/providing and not something the person is “working up” or “willing” (Romans 9 When God convicts a person and that conviction is responded to with “turning,” then in that moment a person is not in the flesh but in the spirit because their minds have become set on the things of the spirit and are no long on the the flesh. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958071100166546345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-92079834425648144362016-12-31T16:39:55.585-06:002016-12-31T16:39:55.585-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958071100166546345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-10919937894439321012016-12-31T16:39:13.809-06:002016-12-31T16:39:13.809-06:00TETH: If accepting that gift is pleasing to God in...TETH: If accepting that gift is pleasing to God in your arrangement, and you would struggle in vain to prove otherwise, then the dead man is INCAPABLE of receiving that gift because he CANNOT PLEASE GOD.<br /><br />JH: Yeah, I wouldn’t want to prove otherwise :) Of course it is pleasing to God. The moment a person puts faith in God, they come out of the flesh and into the spirit, therefore it is no longer true of them that they “cannot please God.” 1 Corinthians and Romans 8 teach that as long as a person is “in the flesh” - or - as long as a person is functioning only by his own faculties, then he is in a position of being incapable of pleasing God. However, what those passages DO NOT say is that a person in that position cannot “get out” of that position. A person in the flesh “cannot please God.” True. But a person in the flesh CAN get into the spirit and then subsequently be in a position of being pleasing to God. Faith (Proverbs 1:24 - Isaiah 55:2-3) isn’t in itself “righteousness” in the same sense that “purity, love, kindness” are in themselves “righteousness.” Rather faith is simply an instrument by which God has chosen to dispense his righteousness through, by Jesus (Romans 3:22 - Philippians 3:9).<br /><br />Faith in and of itself is not pleasing to God. Neither is faith in and of itself of any significance or value. It is neutral. What matters, and is of significance and eternal value is the “object” of faith in God’s word - Jesus.<br /> “That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace…” (Romans 4:16) - The implication of this saying of Paul is that a person simply having faith is SO THAT it can be BY GRACE. Therefore, to Paul, a person simply having faith = a person having NOTHING So, a lot of the misunderstanding here comes from our differences on what the nature of faith is. “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Galatians 3:6) - It does not say that Abrahams belief was itself righteousness. Rather it was “counted as” - implying that it wasn’t actually righteousness but was “counted” as such because God had sovereignly chosen to make faith the instrument through which his righteousness would come. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958071100166546345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-83725631629920046852016-12-31T12:22:56.835-06:002016-12-31T12:22:56.835-06:00TETH ANSWER 403
JH: I can't be faithful to sc...TETH ANSWER 403<br /><br />JH: I can't be faithful to scripture and say that God simply "puts faith" into in unbeliever apart from any response on their part. <br /><br />TETH: That is precisely what God does. He gives men spiritual life by direct and divine fiat (John 5:25) giving them the faith whereby they may seek God (Galatians 4:6).<br /><br />JH: And at the same time I can't say that unbelievers are capable of performing righteous works apart from the spirit. <br /><br />TETH: Neither does my position say that unbelievers (unregenerate men in this context) can do righteousness. A man must be born again to have the spiritual capacity to do something righteous, because whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23) and faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22) not a prerequisite to obtaining the Spirit. <br /><br />JH: Which is why Paul contrasts faith with works. Faith in some way, which again I don't fully understand, is merely an instrument through which righteousness comes and is NOT righteousness itself.<br /><br />TETH: Faith is the vital capacity whereby one can perceive and be blessed by spiritual truth. It is an evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:6) namely the regenerating grace of God whereby you received faith and the ability to rejoice in your existing salvation.<br /><br />God bless and happy new year, <br />TETH theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-6638839142634209692016-12-31T12:22:32.516-06:002016-12-31T12:22:32.516-06:00TETH ANSWER 402
TETH: You then say…
JH: i think ...TETH ANSWER 402<br /><br />TETH: You then say…<br /><br />JH: i think you are misunderstanding my point with the mars illustration.... another example - a father buys an expensive gift for his son and he holds it out toward his son offering the gift to him. The son lifts up his hands and takes the gift from his father. Because the son lifted up his hands to take hold of the gift his father was offering, did it then cease to be a gift? <br /><br />TETH: No. Under such an arrangement the expensive item is still a gift. But a man who has no thought of God (Psalm 10:4) whose mind is enmity against God (Romans 8:7) who lacks faith and is therefore incapable of doing anything pleasing to God (Romans 8:8) CANNOT accept that gift because it is utterly contrary to his nature which denies that he stands in need of God’s assistance at all. It is for this reason that man is said to be dead in trespasses and in sins. (Ephesians 2:1). <br /><br />JH: The Bible's description of unbelievers as being "dead" is often taken way past what was intended by that analogy. Being dead in sin in the case of the example I gave above would be equivalent to the sons inability to "buy" for himself the gift. He doesn't have the means to. But that doesn't mean he has no ability to accept the gift when it is provided and offered. <br /><br />TETH: If accepting that gift is pleasing to God in your arrangement, and you would struggle in vain to prove otherwise, then the dead man is INCAPABLE of receiving that gift because he CANNOT PLEASE GOD. That is the complete undoing of your position. To make matters worse, any such acceptance of a gift would undeniably be a function of the will, which is likewise excluded (Romans 9:16, John 1:13). Adding even more to the undoing of your case is the fact that such an act on the part of an unregenerate man would be an act of the flesh, which Jesus insisted profiteth nothing so far as the matter of eternal salvation goes. (John 6:63). Those obstacles are manifold and insurmountable. That’s why salvation is by sovereign grace not by the exercise of willful, fleshly, capability. <br /><br />JH: I'm really trying to understand the nature of faith/belief/turning. It's been a major focus for me lately and I most definitely can't say I've got it figured out :) but I can't get around that God puts the responsibility of responding on man. <br /><br />TETH: Man in his fallen condition CANNOT respond, because he CANNOT please God (Romans 8:8) and the response you insist he must responsibly DO to the eternal salvation of his soul is not in the domain of capability for him. I would put it this way: By the time a man performs a spiritual responsible act he has ALREADY passed from death unto life by the new birth, else his act would be faithless and unpleasing to God (Hebrews 11:6, Romans 8:8). <br /><br />JH: And while I agree with you that the doctrine of man's depravity must be maintained, so also must the clear doctrines of man's responsibility. <br /><br />TETH: Depravity establishes NOTHING if not the doctrine of mans IRRESPONSIBILITY. Man has absolutely NO RESPONSIBILITY WHATSOEVER in how eternal salvation is imparted to him. None whatsoever. But when you see a man bringing forth acts of spiritual responsibility, he is no longer a carnal man, but is born of the spirit of God. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-19413837577799052742016-12-31T12:21:58.045-06:002016-12-31T12:21:58.045-06:00TETH ANSWER 401
JH: When an unbeliever chooses to...TETH ANSWER 401<br /><br />JH: When an unbeliever chooses to live his whole life and never commits adultery, then by your definition, he is performing a true act of righteousness. <br /><br />TETH: Incorrect. That is not my position. An unbeliever CANNOT obey God because true, spiritual obedience to God requires FAITH and an unbeliever (by which in this context I am assuming you mean an unregenerate man) does not have FAITH. An unregenerate man can exhibit behavior that is consistent with a command of God but it is never done in obedience to God, because God is not in all his thoughts (Psalm 10:4). For example, he may choose to not cheat on his wife or to be honest on his tax return, but because this is done in the absence of faith it is SIN, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) and whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). This is an absolutely critical observation if we are to have a proper definition of obedience to God. Faith is essential to spiritual obedience, and one who lacks faith is therefore incapable of spiritual obedience. Though he may choose to do things that are consistent with God’s commands in many ways, he does not do so in faith, but rather because he sees some practical benefit to his behavior without any thought of God whatsoever. <br /><br />TETH: You go on to say…<br /><br />JH: Interesting, so now the believer has the old and new man. In this state, who is it that "sets" the mind on the things of the spirit and who is it that sets the mind on the things of the flesh? Who does the "setting"?<br /><br />TETH: The mind of the spirit of God. A man who obeys an exhortation to “set his mind” on spiritual things must do so from the spiritual mind as a function of the will of the new man, because the old man is incapable of such an action and because such an active, participatory action is an act of the will, the will of the new man. This is the struggle of Romans 7 that all of God’s regenerate people experience to varying degrees. <br /><br />TETH: From there you state…<br /><br />JH: It's very interesting that Romans 3:10-18 never uses the word "can't." Whatever definition of depravity is given here, it is not one that says man "can't" seek/fear God. It simply says he "doesn't." There is a large difference between the two. <br /><br />TETH: I think this line of reasoning is pretty daft (to be blunt about it). If God states that someone NEVER does something do you believe he intends that they CAN do it or that doing it is impossible for them? Since you seem hung on the absence of a “can’t” in Romans 3:10-18 perhaps you’ll consider the CANNOT of another statement by the apostle Paul, “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD.” (Romans 8:7-8) That testimony eliminates any objection based on the missing “can’t” in Romans 3:10-18 to any reasonable observer, IMO. <br /><br />TETH: Ask yourself this – is turning to God for forgiveness pleasing to God? The only possible answer to that question is a resounding, “Yes!” (Luke 15:7) An unregenerate man, who ever and only possesses the carnal mind, CANNOT please God. It follows that he CANNOT repent or do any other thing to obtain the free gift of eternal life. Once again, this underscores that salvation is by GRACE. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-47178885263163751832016-12-31T11:21:26.571-06:002016-12-31T11:21:26.571-06:00TETH: Anything a man DOES in obedience to God is a...TETH: Anything a man DOES in obedience to God is an act of righteousness. <br /><br />JH: When an unbeliever chooses to live his whole life and never commits adultery, then by your definition, he is performing a true act of righteousness. <br /><br />TETH: The fall set man’s mind on the flesh (Romans 3:10-18). A regenerate man possesses a carnal, sin nature (from the fall) as well as a “new man” which is born of the Spirit (Romans 8:9, Ephesians 4:24). It is for this reason that God’s regenerate people are exhorted to “put on the new man” because if we just “go with the flow” we will inevitably find ourselves falling back into old, carnal and sinful habits (Ephesians 4:24).<br /><br />JH: Interesting, so now the believer has the old and new man. In this state, who is it that "sets" the mind on the things of the spirit and who is it that sets the mind on the things of the flesh? Who does the "setting"?<br /><br />TETH: Look at man in his fallen condition in Romans 3:10-18. Can he seek God? No. Can he do good? No. Can he fear God? No. If you take a sober view of man’s condition as a result of the fall, you’ll see that the things you insist man must do in order to be eternally saved are impossible for him (Matthew 19:26).<br /><br />JH: It's very interesting that Romans 3:10-18 never uses the word "can't." Whatever definition of depravity is given here, it is not one that says man "can't" seek/fear God. It simply says he "doesn't." There is a large difference between the two. <br /><br />JH: i think you are misunderstanding my point with the mars illustration.... another example - a father buys an expensive gift for his son and he holds it out toward his son offering the gift to him. The son lifts up his hands and takes the gift from his father. Because the son lifted up his hands to take hold of the gift his father was offering, did it then cease to be a gift? <br /><br />The Bible's description of unbelievers as being "dead" is often taken way past what was intended by that analogy. <br /><br />Being dead in sin in the case of the example I gave above would be equivalent to the sons inability to "buy" for himself the gift. He doesn't have the means to. But that doesn't mean he has no ability to accept the gift when it is provided and offered. <br /><br />I'm really trying to understand the nature of faith/belief/turning. It's been a major focus for me lately and I most definitely can't say I've got it figured out :) but I can't get around that God puts the responsibility of responding on man. And while I agree with you that the doctrine of man's depravity must be maintained, so also must the clear doctrines of man's responsibility. <br /><br />I can't be faithful to scripture and say that God simply "puts faith" into in unbeliever apart from any response on their part. And at the same time I can't say that unbelievers are capable of performing righteous works apart from the spirit. Which is why Paul contrasts faith with works. Faith in some way, which again I don't fully understand, is merely an instrument through which righteousness comes and is NOT righteousness itself. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958071100166546345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-49479357928390116712016-12-26T20:10:48.274-06:002016-12-26T20:10:48.274-06:00TETH ANSWER 318
JH: Unless there is another point...TETH ANSWER 318<br /><br />JH: Unless there is another point I've made you want to focus in on as well. But as much as we can simplify and contain this convo would be helpful for me and most likely would make it a more beneficial conversation. Or if you are ever in the Wichita Kansas area lets meet for coffee and continue there :)<br /><br />TETH: No worries. Theological discussions have a way of going off into a lot of different directions. They’re pretty difficult to contain sometimes. <br /><br />JH: Was King Ahab regenerate?<br /><br />TETH: I find it difficult to definitively prove Ahab’s state of grace from the evidence set forth. If his “humbling” of self was genuine and spiritual then he had to be regenerate because a natural man is incapable of such sincere repentance born of faith given that the pride of his countenance will not permit it (Psalm 10:4). His idolatry and continued issues with sin would then be no different from Solomon who had the same problem. Indeed, God’s people are warned to keep themselves from idols (I John 5:21). If on the other hand, Ahab’s “humbling” was not spiritual at all, but merely a pragmatic sorrow in order avoid the consequences of his crimes, then one has no problem asserting that he was unregenerate. This sort of non-spiritual “repentance” is referred to elsewhere in the bible, most notably in the case of Judas. “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders” (Matthew 27:3) While it is said that Judas “repented” it seems evident that this was not a sincere, spiritual repentance but rather of an effort to avoid consequences. Where both Ahab and Judas are concerned, I’m inclined to believe that neither were regenerate men and that their “humbling”/”repentance” was not spiritual but self-serving. That said, I believe it is difficult to definitively prove either case given the scriptural evidence available to us. What say you?<br /><br />God bless, <br />TETH theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-27335809876555638872016-12-26T20:10:26.868-06:002016-12-26T20:10:26.868-06:00TETH ANSWER 317
JH: So, Paul says that if salvati...TETH ANSWER 317<br /><br />JH: So, Paul says that if salvation is by faith, then it is not by works. But in essence Calvinism says "if it's by faith, then it IS by works." Strange. <br /><br />TETH: I’m not a Calvinist. That said, what Primitive Baptists believe is that if one must exercise FAITH in order to obtain eternal life then one’s doctrine is in conflict with the fact that a man without the spirit of God does not have the fruit thereof which is faith. It is a contradiction to assert that man has faith before he has the spirit while his mind is ever and only in the flesh and enmity against God. Faith alone is sufficient evidence of one’s salvation, but it is not exercised to OBTAIN salvation, but as an ex post facto evidence of regeneration which makes one’s salvation manifest in their experience. <br /><br />JH: Please show me where the Bible says God made a covenant with Abraham before time? <br /><br />TETH: God’s covenant with Abraham is related to the coming Christ and the salvation of his seed. “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) Part of the covenant is election of those who would be chosen “in Christ” and this occurred before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4-5) That is a fundamental tenet of the covenant and it LONG predates God’s revealing of such things to Abraham. <br /><br />JH: For time sake, don't feel obligation to reply to all I've said. I can't continue to read these long of posts or write them :) I need to use more of that time for my family. <br /><br />TETH: I don’t mind. I think these things are important to our spiritual understanding and that this ultimately benefits our families as well. I certainly understand the constraints on your time. Don’t feel obligated to reply to me in full or even at all. Only do so as you have time and feel it profitable to discuss. No worries. <br /><br />JH: The main thing from all of this that I am primarily interested in is your usage of 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 8. So if you wanted to just focus on that, that would be good for me. <br /><br />TETH: Both passage are addressed to the regenerate but the logic they employ rests upon observations regarding the NATURAL MAN and the CARNAL MIND. An unregenerate man is ever and only a NATURAL MAN with a CARNAL MIND as he lacks the new man and the mind of Christ. It follows that he is EVER AND ONLY capable of the motions of the NATURAL MAN and the CARNAL MIND and so my point in using these passages is sustained. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-88580974482065448782016-12-26T20:10:08.534-06:002016-12-26T20:10:08.534-06:00TETH ANSWER 316
TETH: The very next verse states ...TETH ANSWER 316<br /><br />TETH: The very next verse states that such people “were born” (past completed action with ongoing results). That is one of the strongest texts in the bible for establishing that regeneration precedes the exercise of faith in time. <br /><br />JH: You are putting your own understanding on when the birth happened. You’re assuming that the birth happened before the receiving of Christ. That's not in this passage though. <br /><br />TETH: No. I’m applying the verb tenses of that passage. “Were born” is an aorist, passive, indicative verb. That means that it took place before the preceding events. Moreover it is passive, which means that man’s action have nothing to do with it. This verb tense is likewise established in other passages like “Whosoever believeth (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ is born (perfect tense, past completed action with ongoing results) of God” (I John 5:1a) The point I’m making is a function of language and verb tenses, not an assumption. <br /><br />JH: The "being born" came after the receiving. It wasn't due to their own "willing or working" like Romans 9 says but "of God. Meaning, their birth was by grace. It wasn't a result of works but was by faith. <br /><br />TETH: But this contradicts your statement that men must BELIEVE before they are born again. Do they BELIEVE apart from being willing to do so? That is a ludicrous proposition, brother, and the moment you admit that they were “willing” to BELIEVE you have likewise admitted that their “will” was in the critical path to obtaining eternal life in your system of salvation. That is a clear violation of John 1:12 and Romans 9:16. You simply can’t have it both ways. <br /><br />JH: Interesting how the Bible contrasts faith and works... As if they are two opposite things. Yet when I say that a person simply believes in Jesus for salvation and sonship, you claim that I believe man does a "work" for his salvation. <br /><br />TETH: It is undeniable that if God says, “Believe” in the imperative (Acts 16:31) and if someone “believes” in response, then they are exercising obedience to God which is a righteous work. Paul’s statements regarding faith vs works have to do with the contrast between believing as an evidence of regeneration (Hebrews 11:1), which affirms that man HAS eternal life through a sovereign, life-giving act of regeneration by God alone vs doing things like keeping the law as a means of OBTAINING eternal life. That is the contrast. More to the point, however, is that men who are dead in trespasses and in sins DO NOT HAVE FAITH which is a fruit of the Spirit and thus they CANNOT believe nor can they obey the command to believe. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-22444712098358822762016-12-26T20:09:51.399-06:002016-12-26T20:09:51.399-06:00TETH ANSWER 315
JH: If someone was to come up to...TETH ANSWER 315 <br /><br />JH: If someone was to come up to me and say - "wow, you sure are something special. Good job getting yourself all the way to Mars." - That would be insane. <br /><br />TETH: Yes. THAT would be insane because it would be foolish to assert that your decision to board and willingness to do so under your own power was deserving of ALL the credit for the entire trip. However, because your decision and boarding was in the critical path to making the trip, it would likewise be insane to insist that it does not deserve some measure of credit for getting you to Mars, albeit a small measure of credit in comparison. THAT is the undoing of your construct. <br /><br />JH: No one in their right mind would give me ANY credit. Nether would I give myself credit. <br /><br />TETH: To not give you ANY of the credit would be silly, given that by your own admission a decision to board and the effort to board under your own power were REQUIREMENTS of ever making the trip to Mars in the first place. So those who would give you NO credit at all for your part in making the trip are denying that the choice and the boarding were in the critical path. Brother, that’s just completely unavoidable. <br /><br />JH: In the same way, if you will stay with the analogy... depravity implies that I am incapable of making the choice to "go to Mars." But it doesn't mean. That I'm incapable of making the choice to go if all of the arrangements are made FOR me. <br /><br />TETH: No. Depravity means you’re dead and thus incapable of making the decision to board and incapable of having the strength to board. The bottom line is this, if man is IN ANY SENSE placed in the critical path to making the trip, he will never make it to Mars because he lacks the capacity to board the ship. If God did 99% of salvation and is simply looking to your 1% effort in boarding the ship to get you eternally saved, you’ll never be saved, because the dead do not do spiritual things, indeed they cannot. It is for this very reason that God has to do it ALL and by the time he regenerates his chosen sons (Galatians 4:6) they are already alive and on board the ship and on their way to Mars apart from any decision they ever made or actions they ever took. That’s salvation by grace. <br />theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-47406899659710200182016-12-26T20:09:34.721-06:002016-12-26T20:09:34.721-06:00TETH ANSWER 314
JH: I have no ability to choose t...TETH ANSWER 314<br /><br />JH: I have no ability to choose to go to Mars, simply as an act of the will. No Matter the effort or exertion I put into it, it is simply out of my grasp and above my ability. <br /><br />TETH: Neither can you choose to do good, seek God, fear God, or understand spiritual truth while in a state of depravity. It follows that if you’ve ever done such things, which you undeniably have, it is because you were BORN AGAIN else you would never have had any inclination to do such things. Men seek God because they HAVE eternal life, not in order to obtain it. The only “obtain” it via seeking in the sense of coming into an explicit knowledge of it in their experience. But even as an infant is not aware of his parents in a cognitive sense until long after the instant wherein his life started, so it is with one’s “obtaining” life through an experimental understanding of such. This is once again a “dimension” of sonship that is not to be confused with either the vital beginning of sonship nor of the covenantal origin of sonship. <br /><br />JH: However, if the means to get to Mars are provided, if a spacecraft is designed and built, if astronauts are trained and prepared to fly the ship and all the preparations are made for me to go as a passenger and I'm given the invite, then I can indeed choose to go to Mars. <br /><br />TETH: Dead men do not board spaceships as a result of their will or power. <br /><br />JH: This choice has nothing to do with my abilities or my own intellect. <br /><br />TETH: So if you chose to get on a ship going to mars it would have NOTHING to do with your ability or intellect? Were you floated aboard the ship in some passive sense without moving a muscle? How does one make a decision to do something without engaging the intellect? The statement that “This choice has nothing to do with my abilities or my own intellect” Is so evidently false that it is embarrassing to have to point that out to you. <br /><br />JH: The praise and glory for getting to Mars would go entirely to the ones who built the ship, made preparations, and navigated/flew the craft. <br /><br />TETH: Not ALL of the praise and glory, because had you not decided to board and done so under your own power, you would have never made the trip. This observation is intellectually unavoidable because you have placed man’s decision and capacity to board in the critical path to getting to Mars. There’s just no two ways around that fact. Simply denying it does not make the dilemma of your position disappear. It only makes it evident that you refuse to honestly confront it, IMO. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-45118128055546113982016-12-26T20:09:15.775-06:002016-12-26T20:09:15.775-06:00TETH ANSWER 313
JH: It is also worth noting your ...TETH ANSWER 313<br /><br />JH: It is also worth noting your usage of 2 Thessalonians 2 is a bit unwarranted I think. It says not all men have faith or have "the faith." <br /><br />TETH: It says, “all men have not faith.” (II Thessalonians 3:2)<br /><br />JH: This means very little in the way of your argument. Paul is simply communicating that there are wicked and evil men, because they don't have faith - or "the faith." <br /><br />TETH: It says that there are wicked and evil men who do not have faith. When coupled with the Lord’s affirmation that men do not believe because they are not sheep (John 10:26) and the unavoidable reality that some men end up in hell as a result (Matthew 25:41) underscores the fact that the non-elect never possess faith during their natural lives because they are devoid of the spirit of God of which faith is an evidentiary fruit.<br /><br />JH: There is no implication here that it is impossible for them to have faith. Or that they cannot ever have faith. <br /><br />TETH: Not in that text alone, but when coupled with the testimony of John 10:26, which completely destroys the idea that men are not sheep because they don’t believe and establishes that men don’t believe because they are not sheep, the point becomes evident. Plainly put, “all men have not faith” means that some men are unregenerate, and some men are ever and always unregenerate given that they were never chosen unto eternal salvation and God never purposed to save them (Romans 9:21-23). That may be a hard truth, but it is the truth nonetheless and the Lord’s disciples have often thought such truths are “hard” (John 6:60). <br /><br />JH: Choice. The analogy of death used to explain our spiritual condition in the Bible can be taken to mean things that the scriptures never intended. <br /><br />TETH: It means that man is spiritually incapacitated and unable to do good, understand spiritual things, seek God, or fear God. (Romans 3:10-18). That truth destroys any system of salvation that requires man’s actions. <br /><br />JH: I am limited in my free will to choose by what is available to choose. I can't choose to be on Mars, because I have no ability to make that happen. I am limited in my choice In that way.<br /><br />TETH: Look at man in his fallen condition in Romans 3:10-18. Can he seek God? No. Can he do good? No. Can he fear God? No. If you take a sober view of man’s condition as a result of the fall, you’ll see that the things you insist man must do in order to be eternally saved are impossible for him (Matthew 19:26). theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-48351097460092350552016-12-26T20:08:49.521-06:002016-12-26T20:08:49.521-06:00TETH ANSWER 312
JH: Concerning the mind that is &...TETH ANSWER 312<br /><br />JH: Concerning the mind that is "set" on the flesh in Romans 8 - who is the one who sets the mind on the flesh? God? Or the individual persons Paul wrote to? The individuals of course.<br /><br />TETH: The fall set man’s mind on the flesh (Romans 3:10-18). A regenerate man possesses a carnal, sin nature (from the fall) as well as a “new man” which is born of the Spirit (Romans 8:9, Ephesians 4:24). It is for this reason that God’s regenerate people are exhorted to “put on the new man” because if we just “go with the flow” we will inevitably find ourselves falling back into old, carnal and sinful habits (Ephesians 4:24).<br /><br />JH: God will not set a persons mind on the flesh! <br /><br />TETH: True enough. The bible establishes that man’s disobedience resulted in his fall and his mind being set upon the flesh. (Romans 5:12,19) You won’t find me supporting the idea that “God set man’s mind on the flesh.” Incidentally, this is one of the distinctions between Primitive Baptists and many in Calvinism. We are not Calvinists and we do NOT believe in the absolute predestination of all things as most Calvinists do. <br /><br />JH: And he also won't set a persons mind on the spirit. <br /><br />TETH: He provides his sons with the Spirit apart from their participatory involvement whatsoever. That’s called regeneration. <br /><br />JH: He will provide the opportunity to set the mind of the spirit but the responsibility of doing the "setting" is on us. <br /><br />TETH: Man is not saved by “opportunity” – he’s saved by grace, not as a result of having exercised RESONSIBILITY but out of a state of abject IRRESPONSIBILITY. <br /><br />JH: That "setting" is our responsibility. Or in other words - it's our "response" to HIS "ability." <br /><br />TETH: The only man capable of such a RESPONSE is one who is spiritually alive and thus already in possession of eternal life. A fallen man who possess only enmity against God is incapable of such a RESPONSE. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-48264250121206817722016-12-26T20:08:29.474-06:002016-12-26T20:08:29.474-06:00TETH ANSWER 311
JH: It is the believer Paul refer...TETH ANSWER 311<br /><br />JH: It is the believer Paul refers to in Romans 8 who's mind, when on the flesh, is enmity toward God. It's believers in 1 Corinthians 2, who are carnal, and therefore unable to receive or understand the things of God. You argue from these verses that the unbeliever is carnal and unable to receive spiritual things - this is true - but you must recognize that while that IS true about unbelievers, the focus is on believers in these passages. <br /><br />TETH: When you admit that what I Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8 is true of unbelievers, you establish my point irrespective of whether or not you believe that passage is speaking in reference to believers. It is speaking TO believers but it is making reference to the NATURAL MAN. This is the only MAN an unregenerate man possesses. Thus that characterization is ever and always true of him. The regenerate man, on the other hand, still possesses the OLD MAN as well as the NEW MAN and the two are in conflict. Nevertheless you admit that these things are unavoidably true of the unregenerate and that is all that is required to substantiate my point. <br /><br />JH: It is the Christian who Paul says is carnal, and unable to receive spiritual truth (while in that state of mind). <br /><br />TETH: But he bases this on a fundamental truth regarding the NATURAL MAN which is man in his fallen condition. The SPIRITUAL MAN has spiritual capacities such as FAITH and is therefore capable of obeying God and acting in ways that one who is ever and only a NATURAL MAN cannot. That is the point. Apart from Paul’s statements regarding the NATURAL MAN being true, his admonition makes no sense. <br /><br />JH: And it is the Christian in Romans 8 who Paul says has a mind that is at enmity with God while set on the flesh. This is hugely significant and you cannot leave this point out! <br /><br />TETH: I don’t leave it out. Rather I point out that his statement rests on the fundamental observation regarding man in an unregenerate state, who ever and only has the “carnal mind” whereas the regenerate man is in conflict between the old man and the new man. Simply put, an unregenerate man is ever and always of a CARNAL MIND by definition and thus he has the incapacities that Paul lists. Those incapacities make it certain that he can do NOTHING to seek God, choose God, love God, fear God, etc. (Romans 3:10-18). So Paul’s entire argument is based on the fact of man’s CARNAL condition as a result of the fall. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-41858120341625352042016-12-26T20:08:06.493-06:002016-12-26T20:08:06.493-06:00TETH ANSWER 310
JH: Though, God is able to grant ...TETH ANSWER 310<br /><br />JH: Though, God is able to grant repentance again if he wills in his own time and way.<br /><br />TETH: God does NOT grant repentance to all men. <br /><br />TETH: Paul says that faith is a fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22)<br />- You say a man has faith BEFORE he has the Spirit. <br /><br />JH: Its not me saying it man! What else do I do with the verses I gave you? <br /><br />TETH: You rightly divide them so that they harmonize with Galatians 5:22, Romans 3:10-18, and Romans 8:7. That right division is precisely what I provided for you. <br /><br />JH: Paul says the spirit comes "BY" hearing with faith. <br /><br />TETH: He does not say that. The only way that someone would come to that conclusion is to disregard the testimony of I Corinthians 2:14, Romans 3:10-18, Psalm 10:4, and a myriad of other verses that establish man’s condition as a result of the fall. The bottom line is, you do not believe that any man is in a FALLEN / INCAPBLE condition, you believe that all men are in a POST-FALLEN / CAPABLE condition and that their eternal salvation is now resting on their willing obedience to the command to repent and believe. The bible excludes both willingness (John 1:12, Romans 9:16) and our obedience (Titus 3:5, Romans 5:19) from having ANTYHING to do with how one is made righteous before God. <br /> <br />JH: He says we are sons "THROUGH" faith! Jesus says we are given the right to become sons if we receive him. Of course I say faith comes before the spirit. Because Paul, Jesus, Solomon, John, and many more do. <br /><br />TETH: These verses have respect to our COGNITION of sonship. They design our EXPERIENCES of sonship, not the beginning of our sonship which long predates anything in our experience and goes back to election before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5). <br /><br />JH: You bring up Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 2 multiple times to refer to the "carnal mind." It must be recognized that both of those passages in context are clearly dealing with believers. <br /><br />TETH: They are speaking TO believers but both the reference to the “natural man” and the “carnal mind” are speaking OF the unregenerate. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-235375176171314942016-12-26T20:07:39.770-06:002016-12-26T20:07:39.770-06:00TETH ANSWER 309
TETH: This concept is repeatedly ...TETH ANSWER 309<br /><br />TETH: This concept is repeatedly reinforced in the writings of Paul when he affirms that we are “dead in trespasses and in sins” (Ephesians 2:1), and that the “carnal mind is enmity against God” (Romans 8:7), and that unregenerate men do not have faith (II Thessalonians 3:2).<br /><br />JH: Yes, the depravity of man is a reinforced teaching in the Bible. Left to himself, man will not turn to God. However, there is no teaching in the Bible that concludes that God had actually left man to himself. <br /><br />TETH: So man is totally depraved except that he’s not totally depraved. Brother, you can’t have it both ways. The truth is, you do not believe that man is totally depraved as a result of the fall, because that total depravity was corrected for all men by a universal provision of prevenient grace. This relegates total depravity to a mere theological technicality, not an abiding reality that has any functional or practical bearing on man’s current condition. This is contrary to Paul’s indictment of man in Romans 3. He see’s depravity as a real and abiding reality that is only overcome by saving, effectual grace, not by some universal provision of a potential for salvation provided man will DO something. Brother, anything a man DOES is a function of his will. The bible excludes that from eternal salvation (Romans 9:16, John 1:12). Anything a man DOES in obedience to God is an act of righteousness. The bible excludes our works of righteousness from having any involvement in our eternal salvation (II Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5). <br /><br />JH: He hasn't left man to himself. Our God is love. Jesus said it best... "While you have the light, walk in the light lest the darkness overtakes you." <br /><br />TETH: God has left many, many men to themselves because he did not choose to save them (Ephesians 1:4), Christ did not die for them (John 10:11,26), and the Spirit does not regenerate them (Romans 8:9). <br /><br />JH: God extends light, and that light can be rejected and refused and ignored. <br /><br />TETH: Men need more than LIGHT to be extricated from the state of death into which they fell. They need LIFE. And God does NOT give LIFE to all men. He gives it to the sheep (John 10:11) and some men are not sheep and that is why the do not believe (John 10:26). <br /><br />JH: To those who ignore the light and don't "walk in it," God allows darkness to overtake them and their opportunity for repentance is withdrawn. <br /><br />TETH: Men are not saved by “opportunity” to repent. They’re saved by the grace of God in applying mercy to them when they were without strength and ungodly (Romans 5:6). theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-12738089262368270122016-12-26T20:07:17.377-06:002016-12-26T20:07:17.377-06:00TETH ANSWER 308
TETH: Faith is a fruit of the ind...TETH ANSWER 308<br /><br />TETH: Faith is a fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. That fact means that a man who lacks the Spirit also lacks faith. That is unavoidable. It is for this reason that Jesus taught, “He who is OF GOD heareth God’s words” (John 8:47) and “Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) Your doctrine insists that he must see the kingdom of God, via a faith he does not have, while dead in trespasses and in sins, and while in the flesh, and as a result become born again. That is totally false and once again denies man’s condition as a result of the fall. Look again at that condition in Romans 3:10-18 and see if you can figure out how such a man can do the repenting and believing you insist he MUST do to the eternal salvation of his soul. <br /><br />TETH: Romans 10:17 does not state that “hearing produces faith” as you insist. It is stating that hearing makes manifest that someone has faith. It is speaking of faith as an evidentiary fruit of regeneration – which is its very definition (Hebrews 11:1, Galatians 5:22). The capacity of faith is the same thing as “the ears to hear.” (Mark 7:16) An unregenerate man lacks these “ears” and as a result he can ever and only regard spiritual truths as foolishness. That is the direct testimony of the word of God regarding man in his natural (fallen) state (I Corinthians 2:14). <br /><br />TETH: (1 Corinthians 2:11) That verse makes it clear that for a man to receive and believe spiritual truth he must have the indwelling Holy Spirit of God.<br /><br />JH: It does not and cannot - or else it would be contradicting the clear order of Galatians 3:5 and the many other verses I provided in my last post. The scriptures repeatedly proclaim that faith comes first and then the spirit. <br /><br />TETH: Look at the verse: “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” (I Corinthians 2:11) That verse states that a man must possess the Spirit of God, that he must therefore be regenerate, in order to receive spiritual truth. In the same way that a naturally dead man cannot receive or believe natural truths in such a condition, a spiritually dead man cannot receive or believe spiritual truths in such a condition. This is man’s condition as a result of the fall… except he be born again. (John 3:3) which is something God does apart from any willing, active participation on the part of man whatsoever. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:25) God calls forth life from the dead and they are made alive and dead men do not actively or willingly participate in their resurrection. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8636101379916124937.post-3880568687346982122016-12-26T20:06:54.307-06:002016-12-26T20:06:54.307-06:00TETH ANSWER 307
Proverbs 1:29 – stating that some...TETH ANSWER 307<br /><br />Proverbs 1:29 – stating that some people did not choose God is no proof that they were capable of choosing God. Moreover, this passage has respect to following the wisdom of instruction and is issued to Israel. It does not design the idea of an offer of eternal life to all of humanity. <br /><br />Hebrews 12:25 – This is an admonition to obedience issued to those who are already Hebrew believers. It has nothing to do with how one obtains eternal salvation. <br /><br />Luke 13:34 – This has respect to the wicked leaders of Jerusalem preventing people from entering into an open profession of following Christ during the gospel ministry of the Lord. It does not have anything to do with extending “offers” of eternal salvation to all of humanity.<br /><br />TETH: So again, you’ve got to pay close attention to the context of these remarks and resist the common urge to wrestle them out of context to defend some unrelated theological contivance you intend to promote. I would again invite you to examine my article on The Free Offer of the Gospel by John Murray. Many of these texts are dealt with in more detail there. <br /><br />JH: 1 PETER 1:23 "since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;" Yes we must be born again to see the kingdom. <br /><br />TETH: You say that, but previously you insisted that a man who is dead in trespasses and in sins and therefore in the flesh is capable of repenting and following Christ even though such an act is done in the absence of faith (Galatians 5:22) given that he lacks the Spirit by definition, and in spite of the fact that such acts of the flesh are unprofitable for salvation (John 6:63) and in spite of the fact that man’s will is excluded from having any participatory role in how he obtains eternal life (John 1:12, Romans 9:16). Those unalterable facts completely dismantle the system of salvation you are suggesting. <br /><br />JH: How are we born again? PETER says by the word of God. How do? Romans 10:17 reveals that the word comes to produce faith. Which brings us right back to Galatians 3:5 which tells us that when faith comes, the spirit then comes. So we are born again not by FIRST hearing the word, which produces faith, which brings the spirit which regenerates us and gives us "new birth." We must be born again to see the kingdom, and we are born again by the word of God through faith.<br /><br />TETH: The “word” to which Peter makes reference is Christ, who liveth and abideth forever. The preached word does not live, nor does it abide forever. theearstohearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331127432012852113noreply@blogger.com