In a recent dialog with a fellow Christian regarding the "salvation" of Cornelius, I made the statement that Cornelius was already in possession of eternal life prior to Peter's preaching the gospel to him per the testimony of Acts 10:2, which prompted the following, common response:
God's Word clearly states that Cornelius was saved after He had heard Peter's proclamation of the Gospel. Your assumption that he had already been a regenerated man when Peter arrived at his home is just sheer nonsense.To which I posted the following response:
What I am saying is that "saved" has numerous meanings in scripture and that you are ham-fistedly insisting that the word ever and only means "getting eternal life." For example:
- In Exodus 14:13 it means delivered from the Egyptians. "And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever."
- In Titus 3:5 it means regeneration. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
- In I Peter 3:20 it means spared from the flood. "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
- In Jude 1:23 it means to correct from false doctrine. "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
But being regenerate and having eternal life does not mean that one is "saved" in the sense of having gospel deliverance from ignorance. When the gospel is believed by a regenerate man, it brings him rest and comfort (Matt 11:28) because it teaches him what the Lord has done and how he should live in response. It is in this sense, and this sense only, that the gospel "saves." It is in this sense that Cornelius was "saved" by Peter's preaching (Acts 11:14).
So we find, upon rightly dividing the word of truth (II Tim 2:15) and considering all of the testimony of Acts 10 and 11, that a man cannot fear God apart from being regenerate (Rom 3:18), that Cornelius "feared God" (Acts 10:2), and was therefore regenerate (Prov 1:7) before Peter preached to him, as affirmed by Peter's proclamation that such that fear God are already accepted with God (Acts 10:35) and thus the "salvation" that came from his preaching was delivery from gospel ignorance (Acts 11:14).
Dear Brother, by your logic the demons are also regenerated because they tremble before God, which shows that they have a fear of God. (James 2: 19) Further, you have someone who does not believe in Jesus saved, and yet the Bible says that the wrath of God abides on the one who is not a believer in Jesus. (John 3: 36)
ReplyDeleteYours for the truth,
Stephen Garrett
www.old-baptist-test.blogspot.com
"Dear Brother, by your logic the demons are also regenerated because they tremble before God, which shows that they have a fear of God." - Stephen Garrett
DeleteThere is not a single text in the bible that speaks of the regeneration of demons. In fact, what we find in scripture is that the devils have no savior - "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham." (Heb 2:16) Since devils have no savior, they likewise have no atonement, no regeneration, and no gospel. It is the clear testimony of scripture that the devils do in-fact believe a great deal of truth regarding God (James 2:19). But it is the wildest of conjecture to believe that any truth that a devil embraces could be a message of eternal salvation, because there is no message of salvation for them. It follows that your assertion regarding the salvific ramifications of demonic belief is neither my position, nor is it supported by scripture or logic.
"Further, you have someone who does not believe in Jesus saved, and yet the Bible says that the wrath of God abides on the one who is not a believer in Jesus. (John 3: 36)" - Stephen Garrett
Job was a believer in Christ apart from ever having heard his name or the truth of the explicit NT gospel of I Cor 15:3-4 (Job 9:2). He possessed a vital living faith in the one true and living God given to him by sovereign grace - in spite of his lack of specific gospel knowledge. The same can be said of all of the OT saints because the gospel was not explicitly revealed to them at that time (Eph 3:5). So I have no trouble believing that Cornelius had the same like precious faith as Job, but unlike his OT counterpart, we see that he was blessed with a knowledge of the truth through the preaching of Peter. To say that a man who lacks explicit gospel knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ therefore does not KNOW Christ in a real and vital sense, is a ludicrous assertion in light of the OT (Heb 11).
Dear Brother:
ReplyDeleteI never said that demons were regenerate. I merely took your argument that said that having a fear of God was proof of regeneration. Since the demons fear God, and since you say that having a fear of God is a proof of regeneration, then it is you who must affirm that demons are regenerate.
Yes, Job and the truly saved Old Testament saints believed in the coming of Jesus the Savior. But, they did not get that revelation apart from Gospel preaching. Did not Paul say that the Gospel was preached to them AS IT IS TO US? (Heb. 4: 2) Why do you disagree with this testimony. Do you believe that the Gospel was preached to the Old Testament people as it is to us? Why do you disagree with the apostle who said - "how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Do you believe that the wrath of God abides on the one who does not believe in Jesus? Do you believe that all who obey not the Gospel will be punished with everlasting destruction? (II Thess. 1: 8-10)
I too believe in sovereign grace. But, let me ask you - were you converted to the Gospel by sovereign grace?
Blessings,
Stephen
TETH RESPONSE 101:
Delete“I never said that demons were regenerate.” - STEPHEN GARRETT
Nor did I assert that this was your position. You pressed that position upon me by claiming it was a by-product of my logic. My answer demonstrated that the notion of demon regeneration is unscriptural, illogical, and therefore is not my position, neither is it a logical ramification thereof.
“I merely took your argument that said that having a fear of God was proof of regeneration. Since the demons fear God, and since you say that having a fear of God is a proof of regeneration, then it is you who must affirm that demons are regenerate.” – STEPHEN GARRETT
Embedded in this line of reasoning is an enormous and erroneous presupposition which you press upon me – namely that the bible’s testimony regarding man in his natural state must of necessity also apply to demons. Men are not demons and thus not all things said of men are true of devils. The bible’s testimony is abundantly clear that man in his natural or unregenerate state has “no fear of God.” (Rom 3:18, Ps 36:1) It follows that any man who fears God is therefore not an unregenerate man, but a man who is born again. This observation has direct bearing on the question of Cornelius’s state prior to Peter’s ever preaching the gospel to him. Since he is said to be “a devout man, and one that feared God” (Acts 10:2) and since we know that the natural man has no fear of God, the fact that Cornelius feared God proves that he was not a natural man, but a regenerate man and thus already in possession of eternal life prior to Peter’s ever having spoken so much as a word of gospel truth to him.
All that said, the bible’s testimony regarding a devil’s capacity of belief is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the bible’s testimony regarding unregenerate men. Clearly the fallen angels are said to “believe and tremble” (Jas 2:19) regarding some orthodox truth, which no natural man is able to do, since natural man has no fear of God. So I would make the following points:
1) The bible’s statements regarding man apply to man, not to devils.
2) Unregenerate men have no fear of God. (Rom 3:18)
3) Devils, though fallen, do fear God. (Jas 2:19)
I therefore DO NOT affirm that demons are regenerate because they “believe and tremble,” because the precept that regeneration is required for one to fear God APPLIES TO MEN, not to devils. By rightly dividing the bible’s statements regarding men from those regarding devils, one avoids the crass and illogical assertion regarding demonic regeneration that you would have me wear.
TETH RESPONSE 102:
Delete“Yes, Job and the truly saved Old Testament saints believed in the coming of Jesus the Savior.” – STEPHEN GARRETT
It is evident that Job did not know the Lord Jesus Christ by name and that he did not know the explicit gospel of the NT as represented by I Cor 15:3-4, else he would have no basis for having said, “I know it is so of a truth, but HOW should man be just with God?” (Job 9:2) Indeed the explicit NT gospel (I Cor 15:3-4) is the answer to that very question. There is no doubt that he believed some truth and that he feared God, but to say that he knew the name of Jesus Christ and the contents of the explicit NT gospel is a completely unsubstantiated projection.
“But, they did not get that revelation apart from Gospel preaching.” – STEPHEN GARRETT
We have already established that Job did not have the explicit gospel of the NT as defined by I Cor 15:3-4. I believe you will be hard pressed to demonstrate from scripture that Job either owned a bible or heard a gospel preacher.
“Did not Paul say that the Gospel was preached to them AS IT IS TO US? (Heb. 4: 2)” - STEPHEN GARRETT
He most certainly did. But the term gospel means “good news.” While it is true that the OT Israelites were preached “good news” regarding their deliverance into the promised land, and that they had “good news” in the form of types and shadows of the OT law and sacrificial form of worship, it is likewise a matter of absolute certainty that while the subject of this “good news” is Christ, the content of their “good news” was typical in the OT period rather than explicit as it is in the NT era. Stated more plainly – none of them knew the “good news” as Paul defined it in I Cor 15:3-4 – “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” Indeed Paul himself affirms that these explicit gospel truths were not revealed to the OT saints – “How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” (Eph 3:3-6) So it is a matter of certainty that the OT saints DID NOT HAVE the explicit NT gospel of I Cor 15:3-4 revealed to them in their time. To assert that they did is to take a ham-handed approach to what is meant in scripture by the term “gospel” and to project the explicit revelation of the NT upon the lives and minds of the OT saints in a way that directly contradicts the testimony of the apostle Paul (Eph 3:5).
TETH RESPONSE 103:
Delete“Why do you disagree with this testimony? Do you believe that the Gospel was preached to the Old Testament people as it is to us?” – STEPHEN GARRETT
While the subject matter of the gospel delivered to the OT saints was the same, the content of the gospel message delivered to the OT saints was radically different. That said the explicit gospel of the NT (I Cor 15:3-4) was not revealed to the OT saints. (Eph 3:5) One must rightly divide the term “gospel” and be careful not to recklessly project NT revelation back upon the OT saints, particularly when their own testimony was that they did not know the gospel in the explicit NT sense. (Job 9:2) So I do not “disagree with this testimony,” rather, I insist that we take care to mind the great disparity in content between the OT gospel and the explicit gospel of the NT.
“Why do you disagree with the apostle who said - "how shall they hear without a preacher?" “ – STEPHEN GARRETT
Paul’s answer to that question is “But I say, have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.” (Rom 10:18) Paul is quoting Ps 19 – “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.” Paul regarded the handiwork of God as a preacher, and on this basis he goes on to make the case that even those of whom it was asked – how shall they hear? – even those have heard something.
“Do you believe that the wrath of God abides on the one who does not believe in Jesus?” – STEPHEN GARRETT
I believe that this text (John 3:36) is teaching that one who is an ABJECT unbeliever in Christ, a non-elect and unregenerate man, has the wrath of God abiding upon him. This cannot be true of the elect unregenerate man because all of the elect are “in Christ” by covenant from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5) and this covenant is the result of God’s everlasting love for his people. Thus his loving purpose is ever and only their eternal salvation from eternity and not one of wrath or condemnation toward them, else they would not be of the elect nor would they be saved.
More to the point, I believe that the OT saints, as well as Cornelius at the time of Acts 10:2, were all regenerate believers in the true and living God. Since Jesus is God, it is evident that such men had a vital and living faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It does NOT however, mean or imply that they knew the name of Jesus Christ, nor does it mean that they knew or understood the mechanics of their eternal salvation as described in the explicit Gospel of the NT. (I Cor 15:3-4) To assert that they did is a projection, not the testimony of scripture itself.
TETH RESPONSE 104:
Delete“Do you believe that all who obey not the Gospel will be punished with everlasting destruction? (II Thess. 1: 8-10)” – STEPHEN GARRETT
It is evident that those whom Paul has in mind in that text are clearly headed for everlasting destruction. They are said to “know not God” and “obey not the gospel” and I do not doubt that this is an accurate description of these individuals. That said, it is illogical to use this text to establish that everyone that “obey’s not the gospel” is therefore one that “knows not God.” The gospel demands our obedience to the precepts taught by the Lord Jesus Christ. To the extent that we continue to commit sin in our lives we can all be said to be disobedient to the gospel. (I John 1:8) It follows then that while all who “know not God” likewise “obey not the gospel,” the converse is not true. There are those who “obey not the gospel” as a result of the undeniable reality of remaining sin (I John 1:8, John 18:27) who none-the-less DO know God and will live with him in glory some day (Matt 16:16-17).
“I too believe in sovereign grace. But, let me ask you - were you converted to the Gospel by sovereign grace?” – STEPHEN GARRETT
The gospel IS the message of salvation by sovereign grace. I do not believe there is any such thing as gospel conversion apart from the belief that one is saved by the sovereign grace of God and “not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy.” (Tit 3:5) I believe that God chose a people before the foundation of the world and covenanted to save them (Eph 1:4-5, John 17:2), that He sent his Son to die for their sins (John 10:11) and not for the sins of anyone else (v26), that Christ died according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (I Cor 15:3-4), that because of Sonship God regenerates His chosen people in time (Gal 4:6), that except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), and that it is for this reason that the gospel is attended by the promise that those who believe this message HAVE eternal life (John 6:47) and they shall never perish (John 10:28), and that the gospel admonishes those who believe to walk in gospel obedience through baptism and discipleship under the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is what I believe. As to whether that rises to the standard of being “converted by the Gospel of sovereign grace” you are at liberty to determine.